Showing posts with label pastor. Show all posts
Showing posts with label pastor. Show all posts

Monday, November 2, 2009

pastor going overboard on facebook

20091024-25的一個周末所做的三件痛快的事, 讓我感到愛與痛的邊緣
星期六晚, 刻意動用了自己的假期, 出席一個講座 -- "子女是誰". 陳延三原來是如此有火的, 我喜愛呢. 他講的不帶一絲的理論, 講的是"內功", 是價值觀. 對很多人而言可能是不實際 (沒有講技術) 和過激 (勁插我們的文化) 的表達, 但就正正是我杯茶. 單單一句 "子女是父母的骨肉, 照顧子女就是照顧自己, 這怎可能是責任" 就使我活在愛與痛的邊緣, 百般滋味. 一路上與太太有傾有講, 知道大家都有反思, 但 "To be or not to be, this is the question".

星期日, 一篇為母會和平堂而預備的心血講章, 憑着神而來的勇氣, 宣講了. 耶利米的不離不棄, 不在困難中讓步妥協, 亦不就此隻身而逃. 百姓走錯了路, 就陪你們走同一條路, 好讓你們在更困難的日子中, 仍然有先知宣講神的信息. 這就是先知的生命, 沒有這生命, 宣講就毫無意義了. 很激動的呢, 每次回到和平堂宣講, 都是激盪得把心都震出來似的. 又是愛與痛的邊緣嗎? 那裡有這麼多愛? 為何愛與痛會這那的相似?

星期日下午, 多倫多好友, 其實是小學, 中學, 大學, 都曾經同校的一位好友為我們一家預備了節目. 為我們預備了房車, 郊外的遊玩點, 還已主人家的方式款待我們. 其實有此機會與小朋友到郊外已經是神的恩賜, 更有機會與好朋友一家相聚, 做了什麼, 講了什麼, 都不相干了. 她丈夫問了我一個問題 "做傳人退休後有什麼打算? 其實無什麼保障" 口行行地回覆了, 今天心中仍有漣漪. 對, 我間中都會想到退休的問題, 即 "無野做" 的年月會怎好, 確實頗煩的. 但這問題是由一位弟兄問出, 我感到的是關心, 不只是對我的關心, 是對整個傳道人 "行業" 的關心. 因為就他的認識與觀察, 發現了這問題成了他的小疑問, 剛巧又遇上我, 才發問. 原來問題無處不在, 關心都同樣可以, 視乎我站在那一邊看.
Updated last Monday · · · Report Note
Judy So
Judy So
i like part 1
October 27 at 11:35pm
Thomas Mak
Thomas Mak
唔好意思,其實除咗d上了車政府官同有錢人外,有邊行有保障,可以退休唔駛憂呢? 問題就唔只係傳道人呢行! 我想講在這方面有好多「同路人」呢! 憂得幾多? 對主嚟講,好少事啫,佢實攪得掂! 對我地嚟講,唔容易但要信多d,又想下辦法點退休好。
October 28 at 4:23am
Vincent Lo
Vincent Lo
Thomas, 初初唔明點解你會講 "唔好意思", 想想下, 又怕想得多了. 不知道我寫了什麼觸動到一些你想到但我想不到的, 讀了幾次都想不懂. 同樣地, 我想不懂的, 又可能不是你最想表達的. 真搞野.
我以為自己不是把痛快 (就是愛與痛) 表達得很痛快嗎? 點解變成 "憂"呢? 真是要再苦練苦練下, 要再掌握得好一點.
難怪某某人講: "寫好了的文章, 作者就是死了, 讀者才是活的". 這就是寫作的既神秘又好玩之處.
October 28 at 4:59am
Vincent Lo
Vincent Lo
當我抽離, 把自己當做讀者, 一位認識盧永傳的讀者. 我發現盧永傳的痛快有一個共通點. 應該講, 不是有一個共通點, 而是共同地沒有了一樣東西. 這東西就在我上一個周末消失了似的.
October 28 at 5:04am
Thomas Mak
Thomas Mak
"唔好意思"係因為我嘅回應係離題, 跟你的分享"愛與痛"搭唔上. 我覺得似回應你好友對你發的問題.
October 28 at 3:18pm
Thomas Mak
Thomas Mak
最未兩句都係跟你互相鼓勵一下!
October 28 at 3:21pm
Vincent Lo
Vincent Lo
按 我的表達, 他們都是上了岸似的. 由上了岸的人說出這說, 對我來講都幾感動, 在我心中他們真的很nice的. 可是, 他們認為還未足夠, 我估因為有兩個小朋友. 真的, 在香港生活, 好難有受保障的感覺, 真真假假, 對大眾很大的困擾. 香港人真係很需要相互的關心與關懷, 不能靠冷冰冰的政府政策.
October 28 at 3:47pm
Calvin Chu
Calvin Chu
it seems like in Hong Kong life is just about 退休. You work hard in school to get good grades to go to a good university to get a good job to 提早退休. Iife is just not balanced. something is wrong when all that people think is about 退休.

anyway, be assured, God provides. 事奉 never ends. God doesn't forsake His faithful servant.
October 28 at 10:03pm · Delete
Vincent Lo
Vincent Lo
Calvin, I strongly disagree with your point about "retirement waste the hard study in school" , since study is for the build up a mature life, but not only for the work. Moreover, my own view of retirement is a choice for a better life in terms of contribution, so the study will not be wasted. The question is when the people do not have the basic ... Read Moreprotection, that means they dont have a choice to keep them contribute freely, since they still have to work work work just for money as a 老油條. Have you ever meet someone working with no passion? I have. meaningless. I dont think that kind of people are balancing their life, they wont be happy, and wont let others happy. what a waste. Please, dont misinterpret me is not respect others. I just want to prove that people keep working with no passion doesnt means there is an balance of a life (whichs you have mentioned), since they are working for the money in order to have the protection in the future or for their children's future. In this case, keep working for the protection is an act of dont trust in God.
Finally, I dont want to talk about the retirement anymore, since my article is talking about my passion with my family, my mother church and my buddy. Please, try to read between the lines.
October 29 at 6:28am
Calvin Chu
Calvin Chu
Oh Lo Sir, I didn't mean"retirement waste the hard study in school". I think you misinterpreted me haha. I meant retiring shouldn't be the purpose of learning and a career. I was talking about how life and learning shouldn't be about retiring. Just to clear that up.

And you are right about no 保障. It's sad, those old people who pick cans and 紙皮. ... Read MoreIt's not right in a society as rich and small as HK. I noticed in Chinese society, there is this narrow view of education where education is about passing the exams, and getting high score, certificates and not really about learning. That's why there's so many cases of cheating from Chinese students in universities.

Thanks for the explanation. I think you touched on many interesting topics and issues in your writing but it is very difficult to discuss on fb, words just get lost in translation. Talk to you when i see you~ Emmanuel
October 29 at 12:59pm · Delete
Vincent Lo
Vincent Lo
well, Calvin. This is what exact you type "You work hard in school to get good grades to go to a good university to get a good job to 提早退休. Iife is just not balanced. something is wrong when all that people think is about 退休."
"misinterpret" ?, how can we interpret it in better way?
On the above, I just want to ask "why not ?", why it is not balance? If it is really not balance in your mind, it is waste. Of course, you can say you did not use the word "waste", but this is not misinterpret I think. About the irrational througt of "not balance", I think I did elaborate my points on above. That's why I disagree with you firstly.

Secondly, It is all depends how do you define retirement. In fact, no one try to or want to define it in my article and the responses, so I do think no one can comment others' point of veiw of retiremet here. That's why I disagree with what you said "something is wrong when all that people think is about 退休." what do you mean "all that people" ? who are they? How can you prove it shold be right or wrong? Actually, this is call "Argument from silence", hope you know that team. You know, you are not asking a question, but a statment. How can we interpret it in a better way? ... Read More

You said "words just get lost in translation". I believe writing is a art of communication, so I love to write very carefully. If writing is not a good way to communicate, how do we know talk face to face is more better way? What is the problem? I am asking a question with no answer.
October 30 at 5:48am
Calvin Chu
Calvin Chu
Hey Lo Sir, haha, my point exactly. This is crazy, we are confused about what the other is talking about. Maybe it's just me. Let me clear one thing up though, not balanced doesn't mean waste, that's putting meaning about something i didn't write. That's your interpretation of what I wrote, not what I meant. and actually, i m not exactly sure about what you mean by "retirement waste the hard study in school".

it is based on my notion that people in HK think about "退休" a lot, probably because they work very hard and lack 保障 as you mentioned. Base on my observation, I do find HK people, generally speaking, to be working very hard and lack security, especially when comparing with their overseas counterparts. And they do talk about 退休 more than Americans or Australians.

I don't think it's healthy/balanced when people thinking and worrying about 退休 so much. I do find people in Hong Kong working too hard and getting too stressed over it, which is basically an unbalanced lifestyle. So I was saying the general lifestyle for the general population of HK is unbalanced. ... Read More

I was writing in metaphor, so please don't take my words literally. I am also using casual American English so I realize that you are misreading what I wrote.

i think talking face to face is better communication because we don't only use words to communication, we also use tone, volume, hand gesture, body language, facial expression to communicate. Words is just a small part of it, and words can easily be misinterpreted depend on where you are from. And it doesn't help with our different language and cultural background.

Do you see this confusion, this is so typical facebook confusion. I am sure we experienced this before. Words get misinterpreted and it's very common.

so better talk to you when i see you. it would be so much easier. this is cool. it's a good discussion but i think the points are missing the points haha.
October 30 at 12:52pm · Delete
Vincent Lo
Vincent Lo
Hey Calvin, I can see that I didnt misinterpret your word, let me explain to you.
Of course, you are useing a metaphor, thats why the reader should use the imagination to interpret the writer's meaning. I sure that, once the writer use metaphor, he / she has a purpose to resrve the rooms for the imagination. Do you agree with that? If you agree, the "not balance" is a sence of "negative" right? So, as a reader, I can use the negative word "waste" to fill in. Of course, different reader can use different word to fill in a metarphor, this is call "Reader responses" ( I think you should know this term). The question is, what is the subject? In the context of your first respons, I got the subject is "the people whose life is work hard in school to get good grades to go to a good university to get a good job to 提早退休 " . However, I dont think it is essentially wrong, thats why I did elaborate my disagreement on above.

The key argument , which is I call it an "Argument from silence", is how do the people plan to contribute to the society? it is not depends on working or retirment. However, we cant make a easy conclusion here.
... Read More
I want to share some more about communication. I think communication is a progress, is a movement of developing. Once two or more guys just talk to defend the self but not base on the movement, it is not a communication. Therefore, the means of communication is not the most important element, write or talk face to face are not prefect, since the limitations of human. If you talk to someone face to face who always said that in chinese " 我有講, 但不是這意思" or "我無講, 但我有這一個意思" always like that, Kill me man, face to face is so cruel. I just tell you my experience but not our conversation on above, ok?

If you still have the interest to understand the dynamics of our conversation, and if you dont mind to waste you time, just read the above again and find out want is our connection and disconnection. As a writer, I am very interesting to the reader responses, I will think how come the reader got this got that which's I am not expected, what did I write? sometimes got lost, sometimes so funny.
October 30 at 5:06pm
Calvin Chu
Calvin Chu
i think it's because I don't understand "retirement waste the hard study in school", but after realizing that you were translating Chinese into English, I think I understand it better somewhat. I think you meant, "retiring is a waste of a person's education." right? if so, that's not what i meant.

my point was that 退休 should not be the purpose and meaning of studying, working hard and life.

yes, this is really amusing...
October 30 at 6:32pm · Delete
Vincent Lo
Vincent Lo
I am not translate form chinese, but may be my english is too chinese style.

This is from yahoo's dictionary:
使荒蕪;使荒廢
The drought wasted the land 旱災使田地荒蕪。... Read More
waste is a verb here.
may be I should use "wasted".

my word in chinese is "退休使苦學得來的白費了", this is what i got from your first respons.

dont worry, I just try to understand what you write but not who you are. Surely, you can have your own point of view which's not as same as me. I enjoy writing and also accept the limiation of it. Everything has limiation la.
October 30 at 10:13pm
Calvin Chu
Calvin Chu
haha that clears things up, that is totally not my point. you misunderstood me. no, i just want to make sure that i didn't get misunderstood, which was what happened.
Sat at 10:37am · Delete
Vincent Lo
Vincent Lo
Hey, you cant just said someone misunderstand you, than just said what you want to said. You should prove it. I did show my logic, but you didnt, just said "misunderstood". This is not communication. Please, read what I have wrote and try to respones point by point, if you have sincere intention. e.g. you said metaphor, than I showed you what is metaphor; you said my english is not english, I showed you my english is english. But, how about you? Have you see the problem? Not just HaHaHaaaa, than said "misunderstood".

Thats why I dont think we talk face to face is better.

Do you really see what I mean?... Read More
Have you talk to others like that usually?

I tell you, I am not angry, but disappointed, since I did you my heart and time to show my concern to your responses.
Sat at 1:41pm
Vincent Lo
Vincent Lo
Calvin,
ok, I think we need a easy way to let go.
1. You said that I misunderstood your point of view, I accepted it now, since I respect you but not logically.
2. Also, I hope you can accept my conclusion too, which is you have not try hard to understand my points of view to your explanations and not communicate base on the movement of the argument.
... Read More
According to the disconnected reasoning, this two points are the fact. We have two different idea without ethical right or wrong.

That's it on this topic.
Sat at 3:21pm
Jessica Man
Jessica Man
Vincent, I understand your feeling in part 2. The more you love/care, the easier/deeper you get hurt, right?
For the retirement protection about pastors, it echoed a bit with Rev. Chu's sharing ytd.
Yesterday at 12:17pm
Vincent Lo
Vincent Lo
Jessica, finally I have time to response now. Michelle and Justin will have test tmr, so busy today.
About the Rev. Chu's sharing which is you have mentioned. I believe it shoud be a coincidence. I dont and cant believe a pastor is using the public preaching time on Sunday Service to echo a personal discussion. Therefore, it shuold be coincidence.
4 minutes ago

Tuesday, March 10, 2009

jar of clay

This is another post to blow off some steam. 

I guess what I am disappointed in some pastors nowadays is their uprightness or actually, the lack of it. It just bothers the heck out of me that some of them employ sneaky tactics to cover their butts and win popularity in the church. 

Selfishness. Pride.

These things prevent them from working for their real boss, God, which then cause a lot of problems. 

Where is the servant leadership? 

But I realize that the churchgoers are somewhat responsible for these behaviours to a certain extend. Yet there is no excuse for those pastors. They do have choices. At times their tactics are well planned, orchestrated with complex maneuvers and effort. 

That is scary. 

For me, I don't really ask too much from pastors as long as he or she is upright in front of God and man, honest, has a pure heart and love God. That's it. I don't demand great sermon, just tell me the Words of God. I don't mind if the sermon is like a lecture and lack entertaining elements as long as it is the Words of God and the truth. I don't care if the pastor is a lousy singer, has little talent, does not have a master or PhD, has a ugly spouse or kid or whatever. 

The world does not lack talent or education or skills in the latest trend and technology. The World lacks and desperately needs the message of God. 

Some pastors are marketing themselves according to the trends of time, doing things to win people, to have people look up upon them instead of God. 

We are jar of clay. We are only instruments for God to work in us. The thing is whether we have God inside, working in us. 

Monday, February 16, 2009

Are You Called To Be A Pastor?

How does a person know if they are called to be a pastor? How does a person know what God is calling them to do? Below are some questions to consider for those who may be in the feeling stage of considering their call. Why is it important to consider carefully and prayerfully one’s call, especially a call to be a pastor? I am convinced that to enter pastoral ministry without God’s call is one of the greatest deceptions of the devil. This is so because the one who is deceived and drawn into pastoral ministry apart from God’s call, will suffer great personal loss if not shipwreck their lives and the lives of their loved ones. But worse, the one who ventures into ministry for the wrong reasons will be powerless to prevent the desecration of God’s holy name. The non-called pastor , the non-called person in any position, is one of Satan’s most effective weapons. (See 1 Timothy 4; 2 Timothy 3-4; 2 Peter 2; Jude; and Revelation 2-3).

Furthermore, there is another enemy in discerning the call to be a pastor, it is called self. There is something attractive to people about standing in front of a group and speaking. This is often at the root of a person’s interest in pastoral ministry. Because of this the person considering whether or not they are called to be a pastor needs to really reflect and prayerfully consider their motives. Is pride involved? Is this “calling” self-serving or self-crucifying? Really pray about your motives. Is this “call” from inside you or heavenly in origin? Satan will seek to sneak into a person’s life through their self and oftentimes snares them on the hooks of pride. He should know, he’s hooked himself (Isaiah 14:12-17; Ezekiel 28:11-19).

Therefore, how does one cut through the fog of impression and feeling to discern in the Spirit whether or not they are called by God into pastoral ministry? Below are a few areas that are particularly important for discerning the one called to pastoral ministry. While I’m sure these questions are not exhaustive or all-inclusive of every individual situation, they are the product of prayer, Bible study, and experience and should be considered seriously and prayerfully. (This tool is focused on discerning the pastoral call, but many of the questions can be applied to various other aspects of ministry to which someone might feel God is calling them to.)

  1. Discerning God’s Will


What evidence is there that you are called to be a pastor? Do you have a plan to discern God’s will? Do you have a history of feeling called to do something only to leave the work unfinished? If so, what makes this “feeling” or sense of a call different? Have you truly put yourself on God’s altar and opened yourself to His will no matter what that might mean in regards to your own personal desires? (See Romans 12:1-2 as well as Joshua 1:8; Psalm 37:5; 119:168; 143:8; Proverbs 3:6; Hebrews 4:16).

  1. Evidence of Pastoral Call


  • Origin of Call – How was this “call” initiated, by you or someone else? Genuine calls are usually brought to light by others who see it in you before you “feel” it in you. If you had not felt the call and initiated it, would anyone else have seen it in you or brought it to your or someone else’s attention? If someone other than yourself has initiated recognition of your call, what is the basis of their observation? Are they simply confirming something that you have sent a message about in some way and therefore trying to affirm you and please you more than they are observing a work of God in you and through you? Jesus initiated the call in the lives of the disciples; they did not come to Him to initiate it. The call by Jesus is more of a follow Me than it is a let me follow You. (Matthew 4:18-22; 10:1-4)


  • Small Groups – Do you take an active role in small group activity? (e.g. Sunday School class; Home Bible Study) It is here where the fruit of a pastoral call is usually seen first. What fruit or evidence of a pastoral call is present in the small groups ministry? Do small group Bible studies “take off” or grow and bear lasting fruit as a result of God working through you? Or, do you find teaching in and leading a small group difficult, uncomfortable, and unfruitful?


  • Interpersonal Evidence - What evidence is there of being able to relate to people in a pastoral way? Do you tend to be frustrated with people or patient with people? Are you able to communicate with people by both listening and speaking to them? Is communication one way, your way? Are you gracious with people? Do you love people? (Galatians 6:1-5; 2 Timothy 2:24-26; 1 Peter 5:1-4).


  • Teaching – Has the Lord opened a door of opportunity for you to teach? If not, why not? Lack of opportunity may indicate this spiritual gift is not present. If the opportunity has presented itself, what fruit of a spiritual gift of teaching was apparent? Pastors need to be able to teach (Ephesians 4:11-12; 1 and 2 Timothy). What evidence is there in your life of an ability to teach? Is there evidence that you can effectively communicate God’s word in an edifying manner? If a person cannot excel in Biblical studies, if God’s anointing is not present in this area, are they called to pastoral ministry? (E.g. Calvary Chapel Bible College/ Extension courses or similar studies – Do you revel and thrive in the work and preparation? Or was the work a burden?)


  • Godly Counsel – What do others (Christians and Christian leaders) think about you being called to pastoral ministry? Do they see it in your life? Can they clearly see evidence of such a call? If so, why? If not, why not? Are you open to their godly opinion or is your mind made up? The counsel of others is important to decision making (Proverbs 11:14; 15:22; 20:18; 24:6)


  • Service – Do you have a servant’s heart? Are you willing to serve in obscurity? Have you ever done so? Are you willing to do whatever God wants whenever He wants it done? Even if that means you are not called to pastoral ministry? (Mark 10:45; Luke 9:23-26; John 13; Philippians 2:5-11).


  • Anointing – Last and most importantly, is there evidence of God’s anointing on you as a pastor? Is it clear or questionable? Can you go through the questions in this Are You Called To Be A Pastor? Study and confidently answer “yes” to these questions? If not, why not? What is the Lord saying to you? Are you rationalizing your responses to bend them in the way you would have them to go? Be honest.
  1. Existing Ministry


What area of ministry has God gifted you in? Would God have a person begin ministries only to leave them prematurely? Would God open doors to ministry and not have a person walk through them? If God has given you a gift to do a certain ministry, then that is probably where He is calling you to minister. As an unprofitable servant it would be inappropriate to rebel against and wiggle out of the way God wants to use you (Luke 17:10).

It would be best to test the waters in ministry locally to see where God’s gifting is in your life, rather than embark in life altering plans based on insufficient evidence or feeling. If God blesses and his call is sure, then proceed in that call, but if He does not bless, you will save yourself a lot of heartache and frustration by moving on and discovering where God really does want to use you. (See 1 Corinthians 7:17,24)

  1. Gifting


Some have mistakenly used Paul’s inspired words in 1 Corinthians 1-2 and 2 Corinthians 3:5-6 as justifying the use of anybody, regardless of God’s gifting, to enter ministry. The foolish things God uses are foolish from the world’s perspective, not God’s perspective. The ones God chooses to minister are gifted by the Spirit to do the work He calls them to do (1 Corinthians 12:1-11; Ephesians 4:11-12). Therefore, if God is calling a person to be a pastor-teacher, they will show evidence of spiritual gifting for such a calling. If God is calling a person to be a pastor then His power working in and through that called person will be evident in such an area. The gifting evidence accompanies the call. A “call” without evidence is suspect. Would God give a person gifts (e.g. Pastor-teaching, evangelism, musically for worship, etc.) that are blessed and spiritually powerful in ministry and then not call that person to that ministry? The calling usually is accompanied by gifts related to the ministry the Lord is calling a person to fulfill. Why would God gift and bless in an area of ministry, seemingly lead a person into an area of ministry, only to have the person “sense” a calling to another area of ministry? Does God give contrary evidence? If you look at the beginnings of the Calvary Chapel movement and the pastors God raised up, (E.g. Greg Laurie, Raul Ries, Mike McIntosh, Jon Courson, et.al) they were not initially learned or schooled in seminaries or Bible schools, but they had been discipled under the teaching of Pastor Chuck Smith and when they took over situations such as small group Bible Studies, the fruit that followed made it very clear of the calling of God in their lives.

  1. Pastoral Perspective


Do you have a realistic view of pastoral ministry? Ministry is not only teaching, or being in view of a group of people, it is above all serving. It is administrating, shepherding, discipling. It is running to the hospital to be at the beside of the sick and doing so at any time of night or day. It’s uncomfortable situations galore when you are called upon by God to rebuke, exhort, correct and encourage. It’s disciplining those who do not see that ministry is service and not a bully pulpit for their own agenda. It is taking a stand against carnal folly and superficiality when those who indulge in such things often rally the unwitting crowd against you. It is speaking the truth in love, no matter what.

Pastoral ministry is serving the Lord and sacrificing time with your family. Your wife and children will miss you every time you step out to minister and you will constantly be reminded of the cost of such a venture. You will be convicted and torn, but you will continue on because God’s call is on your life and you trust the Lord and His grace to compensate for your failings.

Pastoral ministry is always subordinating your will to the will of God. It is never self-serving and always self-crucifying. It is a life of continual sacrifice. It is living in a fishbowl and being the brunt of accusations, insinuations and outright falsehoods made by people who are really not informed of the entire truth of the pastoral situation. Its receiving comments and criticisms offered in a good-natured way about your ministry and wondering if there is something more substantially meant beneath the surface. Pastoral ministry will drive you to paranoia if you are not called by God. Pastoral ministry is depending upon God to defend you in such situations rather than defending yourself (1 Peter 5:6). It is having people pick at your family, judge you, assess not only your pluses and minuses, but all your families’ as well. It’s not reacting to such “attacks” fueled by the enemy who seeks to get to the pastor through those closest to him.

Pastoral ministry is constantly relying on God and patiently working with people who are often transient, or sitting back, uncommitted, or simply infants in Christ. It is waiting on God in service. In it’s beginnings it is often working a full time job, heading up a family, and being used by God to serve in a work of His that may require you to remain in such a situation for years, with no guarantee that it will ever end, (a pastor may be bi-vocational for their entire ministry). The pastoral ministry is not a means of “great gain” (1 Timothy 6:3-10).

Pastoral ministry is serving in obscurity. It is living in a part of the world that only the pastor and God can fully comprehend, no one else, not a wife, not a friend, not even another pastor at times. It is often a humanly lonely calling solely between the pastor and God.

Even so, pastoral ministry is a joy to the called. It is the only option for the called pastor. If you can find happiness and satisfaction in anything else, you are not called to be a pastor. Pastoral ministry is not an alternative and last resort for someone who has failed in every other area of their life and figures, “Hmm, everything else has failed, why not give pastoring a try?” Beware; pastoral ministry is a frustrating hurricane that will blow down the presumptuous who are not called. Those who enter in with presumptuous perceptions of grandeur, of being golden-tongued orators in front of thousands, will soon learn that the weight of ministry will squash those who enter in by their own strength rather than the grace that comes with the call of God. Pastoral ministry is serving God with no other reward but to know that by relying totally on God, He will one day say, “Well done, good and faithful servant.”

We often casually read the description by Paul of his ministry, but as the pastor matures in their ministry they learn and see the truth of this description more and more. Read what Paul said about his ministry and what it means to have a pastor’s heart – 2 Corinthians 3:5-6; 4:2,8-11; 5:14-15; 11:16-23; 12:11-21. Truly a pastor’s call is expressed by the following words of Paul who wrote:

“For I am already being poured out as a drink offering,” - 2 Timothy 4:6a

If you are called to be a pastor, nothing else will satisfy or do for you, and though the road may be hard, God’s call and grace will sustain you. If you are not called, and you venture out haphazardly in your own strength, you are doomed to a life of frustration and folly and will have missed the work God would have blessed.

Conclusion

The words shared above are not to discourage the one who is called by God. In fact, the one called by God will find assurance of their call if they prayerfully apply these questions to their lives. The purpose of such a study is to spare people the frustration and failure that might come by entering into a holy calling presumptively apart from God’s actual call. It is also meant to spare the church any more scorn and poor witness that has come via those who are self-servingly involved in pastoral ministry. When Peter had denied the Lord, Jesus didn’t throw him on the scrap heap, He restored him. But Jesus restored Peter in a way that confirmed his calling and assured him of God’s will in his life. Jesus did this by asking him a few questions:

  • John 21:15-17 – “So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Feed My lambs.”16 He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Tend My sheep.”17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.” Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep.” 1

Now I do not quote this passage to get a rise of emotion out of the reader; I quote this to hopefully strike to the heart of the situation. Peter was asked repeatedly by Jesus, “Do you love me?” Love of Jesus is the center of our relationship with Him. All decisions should be based on that motivation, our love for Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:14-15). Now the point here is not that those who are actually called by God to be a pastor are more loving of Jesus; not at all. The point here is do you love Jesus enough to do whatever He wants you to do? Even if that means you are not to serve him as a pastor? That’s the point. If you love Jesus, you can serve Him joyfully from the heart whether He calls you to do so as a pastor or not. The answer to that question gets to the heart of the truth and the truth at heart, about your “call” to be a pastor; about your call to be anything God wants you to be. May God guide you and call you according to His will.

Claude T. Stauffer is pastor of Calvary Chapel of Hope, P.O. Box 143, Bethpage, Long Island, New York 11714-0143.
For information on other teachings, church services, or if you have a question please contact us by mail,
the church website at http://www.calvarychapel.org/hope, or call 631-224-1761.

Copyright © 2001 Claude T. Stauffer,
All rights reserved.

Monday, February 9, 2009

Things to say to PKs

Sometimes, I think about the stuff that I have to listen to as a PK and how I wouldn't have to endure any of it if only I was just another "church goer".

Seriously, things that people talk to me about would usually send people away to another church in the least and make them stop believing in God altogether.

I wish people can at least "act" more "Christian" at church rather than being rude and insulting to their fellow brothers and sisters.

I guess PKs are just not part of the "brothers and sisters" of the church. We are something different. We are the aliens. We are disposable. Same with pastors.

I just wonder if those people ever consider us to have "feelings" too, that we are also human. I wonder if they know how unreasonable and hurtful the words they say hurt people. Well, many of them said those things intentionally. How evil. Really wonder how we can call ourselves "Christians", why don't we just call ourselves "shitheads"? Rev David Pao was right when he said we are all "scums".

Monday, January 12, 2009

Some Tips for Pastor's Kids

Advice for Pastor's Kids

On serving at church

You don't have to say "Yes" all the time. Mix some 'Nos" in there. Just don't say "No" all the time. Don't become an automatic yesman.
Serve in areas you like and find your gifts.
Remember that you are just another person at church, not a paid staff as some churchgoers might think of you to be. Your parent is the pastor, not you.

Be who you are, what God made you to be, not what churchgoers think you should be.

Sunday, December 21, 2008

Pastor Statistics

Pastors today are faced with more work, more problems, and more stress than any other time in the history of the church. This is taking a frightening toll on the ministry, shown by the statistics below:

Pastors:

  • Fifteen hundred pastors leave the ministry each month due to moral failure, spiritual burnout or contention in their churches.

  • Four thousand new churches begin each year, but over seven thousand churches close.

  • Fifty percent of pastors' marriages will end in divorce.

  • Eighty percent of pastors and eighty-four percent of their spouses feel unqualified and discouraged in their role as pastors.

  • Fifty percent of pastors are so discouraged that they would leave the ministry if they could, but have no other way of making a living.

  • Eighty percent of seminary and Bible school graduates who enter the ministry will leave the ministry within the first five years. Ninety percent of pastors said their seminary or Bible school training did only a fair to poor job preparing them for ministry.

  • Eighty-five percent of pastors said their greatest problem is they are sick and tired of dealing with problem people, such as disgruntled elders, deacons, worship leaders, worship teams, board members, and associate pastors. Ninety percent said the hardest thing about ministry is dealing with uncooperative people.

  • Seventy percent of pastors feel grossly underpaid.

  • Ninety percent said the ministry was completely different than what they thought it would be before they entered the ministry.

  • Seventy percent felt God called them to pastoral ministry before their ministry began, but after three years of ministry, only fifty percent still felt called.

  • Seventy percent of pastors constantly fight depression.

  • Almost forty percent polled said they have had an extra-marital affair since beginning their ministry.

Pastors' Wives:

  • Eighty percent of pastors' spouses feel their spouse is overworked.

  • Eighty percent of pastor' wives feel left out and unappreciated by the church members.

  • Eighty percent of pastors' spouses wish their spouse would choose another profession.

  • Eighty percent of pastors' wives feel pressured to do things and be something in the church that they are really not.

  • The majority of pastor's wives surveyed said that the most destructive event that has occurred in their marriage and family was the day they entered the ministry.

Pastors' Children:

  • Eighty percent of adult children of pastors surveyed have had to seek professional help for depression.

Pastors' Relationship With the Lord:

  • Seventy percent of pastors do not have a close friend, confidant, or mentor.

  • Ninety-five percent of pastors do not regularly pray with their spouses.

  • Eighty percent of pastors surveyed spend less than fifteen minutes a day in prayer.

  • Seventy percent said the only time they spend studying the Word is when they are preparing their sermons.

Sunday, November 2, 2008

Disturbed

I guess not too much encouragement here. A lot of venting here because the issues that I am facing are things that are difficult to talk with others, especially people from church.

Being a PK, a large portion of my life is revolved around church, just like many other devoted Christians out there. But there are some differences and one of the issue that I am facing is one of frustration. The frustration has to do with how my personal, family life is becoming part of church gossips and church politics.

It pisses me off literally. This post is actually ignited by what I typed in one of the older post. I was asked if I can differentiate between my father's serving and my own. I actually wanted to reply, "Can you differentiate?" and I wanted to add, "Why are you asking this question? What the intention of the question?" Why can't he just spit it out clearly?

GOSSIPING

Another rumor is about whether my brother would go back to US to study. It is somewhat a church gossip topic. Why does it matter whether my brother is going to US for school? Why is there such a rumor. The other part of the rumor is that maybe my dad would go with my brother to US.

What the heck? Where do all these rumors come from? How come I have to hear it from someone else? Why does my brother's future education possibility get on the church gossip column? Why is my brother being used in church politic?

It is wrong and I am angry. This should not be happening. I am further disappointed in how there's no concern and care about the feelings of my brother, father, mother and I in this matter. Whoever started this rumor is using my brother, an innocent young high school kid, as a tool for his own selfish reasons.

That person is polluted and perverted, and has a very serious problem. What the heck is wrong with him or her?

It is perverted, it is utterly wrong. Think about it. That gossiper used an innocent child's future education prospect as way to manipulate people's view of the senior pastor of the church.

How wrong can that be? And it's spreading all the way back to my family. Someone asked, "He [my brother] is going overseas for school?"

How come I don't know that? My brother is going to school overseas?

Intention

What is the intention behind this rumor? It is very clear, that the senior pastor, my father, is planning on leaving the church soon.

What the heck?

I pretty much guess the gossiper intended the rumor to make people doubt the senior pastor's commitment to the church.

So corrupted and such lack of moral and decency. Can he just shut up? And it's spreading, influencing many members of the church. People need to stop. People who heard the gossip have to tell that person to stop, and that it's wrong.

Afterthought

I actually questions people's ability to distinguish what's right and wrong, what's gossip and what's not. My church's education level is actually not bad and relatively highly educated in comparison to other churches. (At least the ratio of PhD is pretty good) But do we have high moral and ethical standard ? Is our sense of right and wrong strong? Can we distinguish black from white? And vice versa? Do we have a good relationship with God? Are we listening to Him? Are we reflecting on our lives with God's Word? Are we Christ's elite soldiers?

I wish the answer is "Yes," but it's probably a "No" for many and "Yes" for a few. I hope that there will be a revival and we need it now, not later, now.

I think part of the problem is that we are being influenced by worldliness, post-modernism. We learn to refer to terms such as things being "technically correct," "politically correct," "legally correct," "logically sound (logical),"and etc., but we forget about what's Biblically correct. Bible is no longer our guide, the Word of God is no longer paramount. We refer to the "government's standard" and other kinds of measurement. In other words, worldly standard.

We are in a difficult time, especially in a city like Hong Kong. We are dealing with a lot of worldly forces, the tools of satan. We need to be strong. We can't afford to kill ourselves at home (church), we can't afford to go on hurting one another. We need to consolidate ourselves. Get armed with our shield, helmet, armor and sword. Build up one another, not tear one another apart with gossips, rumors and other means.


May God help us.



I guess it's a good think my brother is going to another church, an English church, so he doesn't have to hear these ridiculous things. TC is the first church he went to in Hong Kong and he grew up here. He enjoyed Sunday school here when he was small but then his friends at Sunday school left and soon he was the only one in class. Very depressing. He had to join an older class. Also, the Sunday school "Chinese" textbook text was getting a bit too difficult for him to read. Now he's going to a church many of his friends go and they have a very good youth ministry there.

It's actually another example of how PKs get neglected. It's depressing, our parents spend so much time at church yet the needs of PKs are often not cared for (yet still be expected to be model in church). My brother had been going to TC for more than 4 years but when he left, nobody raised any concern. It seemed as if nobody cared. People only ask when it comes up in a conversation or when my brother comes for a visit and say something like, "I haven't seen him for so long." It hurts my mom a bit. In a span of about 4-6 months, nobody raised any concern. It's sad. It's unfair.

And...

It also raised other problems at church, such as:
How come my brothers' peers stopped going to Sunday ( and TC)?
Why did the families of kids leave TC?
If my brother left without follow-up, then, did the other kids (and their families) get any needed attention?

These questions lead to other questions, such as:

How come there are age (generation) gaps at church?
Why are people leaving?
Are we paying attention to the needs of people?

And these questions lead to more questions and so on...

Saturday, November 1, 2008

Real Life

Today, I had lunch with a pastor at church and one of the questions that came up was, well, actually the question was very indirect, but the meaning was clear. It was about my commitment to church and whether I am serving because of my dad or not (or for church). It was very vague question but the intention and meaning of the question was very clear. It was on whether I am here committed to serve church whether my father would continue to serve the church or not. The pastor made the example of, "If your brother is going to school overseas with your dad, would you still be at this church? Can you make the distinction."

I find the question offensive. And I think he should know better. The question really was "if I would stay if my dad leave the church." He versed the question very carefully so that on surface it doesn't seem to be anything of significance but it is.

I have been asked to change my membership. And I have resisted not because I don't care. I care about the church intensely, I lose sleep because of bad things happening at church, I feel pain when things go wrong at church and my father feels the same.

I am very concern with the church, probably more concern than most of the "church members." Why? Because this is God's church. This is God's and it is being polluted and perverted. I cry for the innocent people at church. The new believers, the high school students, the young, the good and naive. I care for their spiritual walk, foundation in the faith and relationship with God. I would pain me a lot if I see the church decay. To see these energetic young Christians get perverted by twisted people who are too selfish to see the Truth. Too selfish to see God, too selfish and too prideful to see that this is not their church, this is God's church, Christ's body.

If an average church goer or member see what I see, know what I know about the ugly things that go on in this church, he would probably leave. In fact, a lot of people have left. There is reason why there's holes (population gap) at church.

Going to this church is difficult for me, but I serve here with my heart and devote much time to it because I believe that I could a difference and hopefully people can see that things can be improved, that we can make a breakthrough. I hope that through my serving, people can see my father's position. There are gossips going around, negative things going around about my father which are untrue. I want them to see that it's not so by action, not words, but action.

I knew that when I decided to be more involved at church that the more involved i am at serving, the difficult and painful it would be. because when you serve, you throw part of your heart out there, and naturally you get attached and form relationships with people. The deeper you get, the deeper the hurt can be when things go wrong. The stake go up. I think experienced pastors know this fact and so do people who serve wholeheartedly. It's kind of like the more you hope for the greater the disappointment could be.

And at times, even when you throw yourself out to serve, to make a difference, it might not be appreciated or accepted. You might rejected. We can see Paul experienced that sometimes in his letters. But as Christian, as servants of God, we sometimes have to make tough decisions and know that we do it for God. We do what's right and acceptable not in the sight of men but in the eyes of God. We serve God, that's our ultimate purpose. Sometimes we have to made decisions and act on them. We can fool people but we can't fool God and we will be accountable to Him.

We can be short-sighted and look only at treasures (of the world) that we can see with our naked eyes. The treasure is up there. That's what important, not what's down here. It pains me that even some pastors at church do not know what they are doing at best, or at worst, doing wrongs knowingly for personal benefits. That is painful to see. It's a petty. It's heartbreaking.

We can be so much better. We can do so much better. We have so much potential. But some of us chose not to and stall and limit what we can do for God.

We need God, the world needs God. The world, especially a place like Hong Kong, needs God. We need to know what's right and wrong, and say "No" to wrongs and do what's right. We are given free will, we are responsible for ourselves. We are responsible for our ministries, church, for our community, our city. Nobody going to do it for us. We have to do it. It should be our burden, our mission.

I answered with, "My approach is that I will serve as long as I am here," I don't know how long I would be here but as long as I am here, I would like to serve the church in whatever ways I can that would benefit the church. I serve the Lord and that's beyond any earthly church membership and barrier. I even said that it is difficult for me to see myself living in Hong Kong in the long run, permanently, like in ten years. As long as I am here, I would like to serve actively. That's my attitude in serving, I give what I can give: time, energy, heart, soul, mind, etc. 

I can't see what tomorrow going to bring. I do not know how long I would stay here. Anything can happen, things can change. People living in Hong Kong should understand this. We live in a society of constant change. But does that mean we don't do what is needed to be done now, just because we don't know what tomorrow is going to bring? No. 

It's like playing competitive sport, like football (soccer). As a player, you practice, train and keep your body in the best shape possible in preparation for the football match. You might be playing against a stronger team with little hope of winning, or you might get injured by a tackle, or you might get a red card, or you might be traded to another team before the next match, or you might even die on the field. Nobody knows, but you get prepare for that match no matter what. You hope to play well and you hope to win disregarding whether you know the outcome or not. 




Wednesday, October 15, 2008

Don't know how to start but I will just say what's on my mind and introduce myself a bit.

I am Calvin and I am a pastor's kid. I am a middle child and my dad has been serving the Lord before I was born, so I was basically born in church. Grew up in churches my whole life.

Been through some rough stuff growing up as a pastor's kid and in church. Actually I still do. I am currently going to the church my dad is serving at. I knew some other pastor's kids. Some are alright and doing well, and some not too good. I totally think there should be better support for pastors, pastor's wives and pastor's kids. I thought about collecting stories from pastor's kids and compile them into a book like a Chicken Soup book for pastor's kids, but that's probably something further on in the future. I am actually collecting stories now so, if you happen to be a PK and wouldn't mind to sure please send in a comment and feel free to email me at: cycalvinchu@gmail.com. Or if you are struggling, drop a comment and I can pray for you.

Well, anyway, as a pastor's kid, there are a lot of things that I can't tell most of my church members about because it might discourage them or simply because they wouldn't understand or for other reasons. So I basically vent by writing. I lush out my disappointment, frustration, pain, anger, outcry, sadness and etc with writing. During a conversation, the pastor of my previous church I went to suggested that I should start a blog.

So after thinking about it, I agree. It can be lonely as a PK sometimes and I hope that by sharing some of my experiences and thoughts, I might be able to help others. To bring better understand of PKs by others and let other PKs know that he or she is not alone. There are many of us out there who are probably going through similar experience.

Recently, there are many unpleasant things happening at my church right now. It has been difficult going to church sometimes, at times I feel like as if I am going into a battlefield. And God tells us that we are suppose to be his soldiers, but it is still hard because most people don't think church should be a battlefield, but a simple place of worship, praise and love. Many churchgoers do not know what's exactly happening at their church right now, with church politics, illnesses and weaknesses of the church and etc. But as an adult pastor kid, I get to experience and see a lot of things, some ugly and bad, that not too many people are aware of.

Things that you don't expect to be happening in a mob is happening at church. There are lies, backstabbing, insults and etc happening at church. I wonder sometimes whether some churchgoers actually believe in God, it seems that they are part of Satan's work more than doers of God's work. Some lie to hundred of people. to themselves and to God on the podium. It's shocking and very sad and demoralizing. People misquoting the Scriptures, bending the Words for their own selfish evil schemes. People using one another for reasons I cannot comprehend.

Yes, going to church to me is sometimes disappointing. I wonder at why these people are doing such things. Don't they call themselves Christians, literally meaning "little Christs," a name given to the early Christians because they were Christ-like and set apart from others. A lot of times people at church became part of the work of Satan because of insecurity, pride, selfishness, poor spiritual life, hate and etc. It hurts because they are hurting the flock. They are hurting the church, God church, and often me and my family as well.

As a PK, I sometimes get isolated, I get rough treatment, people say disrespectful things to me, expect certain things they don't expect from themselves or their kids from me and experience other such injustice. Of course, there are good people too and good side of being a PK.

But through all these experience and seeing how wrong things are, I see why we need God more than ever. Because men are crooked. We are sinful. We are stupid. We are freaking idiots and there's no God, no Christ, no cross, then there is no HOPE for us. All that is good come from God. Justice, beauty, truth and etc. We need God. We are hopeless without God. It would be a scary place if there's no Bible to tell us what's right and wrong. So, being at church, even when seeing all these things going wrong, it is really a reminder of how important God is and why it is so important for us to follow his Words. I don't want to be one of the bad guys. I want things to better. I want justice. I want truth to reign. And God is the truth.

In bad situation when it seems like all hope is lost and that Satan and his work is just pounding down, crushing me, all I got is God. He is my hope from all these wickedness.